North Greenwich to Thamesmead Superloop route SL11 to replace 472 bus
Arise the long-dead Greenwich Waterfront Transit! A previously scrapped plan for an express route between Abbey Wood and North Greenwich is being reborn after 16 years and just like that prior idea, it involves the 472 route being rebranded.
This time the route would become Superloop SL11 between Abbey Wood, Thamesmead, Woolwich, Charlton then onto North Greenwich.
Before it’s eventual death under Boris Johnson in 2009 the Greenwich Waterfront Transit would have mostly followed the same route as the SL11 but over time that project was downgraded from a potential tram to trolley bus and then just a rebranded 472.
Given the shell of a plan it became no great tears were shed when it was finally dropped.
But now it’s back. Mostly. Under the last government £23 million was awarded for a Bus Rapid Transit scheme between North Thamesmead and Woolwich and it’s now official this is incorporating the 472 route and will run to Greenwich.
We also know from previous reports that there’s a deadline of 2026 to start the BRT – or Superloop – route.
The big question now is what £23m in capital funding will be used for as when announced it was specifically the stretch between north Thamesmead and Woolwich.
It’s a dual carriageway the entire route. It’s hard to see what £23 million could be used for in terms of bus priority except for the gyratory around Plumstead bus garage.
With 2,000 homes underway near Plumstead garage there was once talk of major road changes to enhance public realm for residents including the creation of two-way streets. They were dropped.
There’s already “bus priority” though it’s the type that’s so cack-handed it slows down buses. One such spot is outside Belmarsh and another near Plumstead garage where buses have their own traffic lights. Bus drivers often head into general traffic lanes as the “priority” is so poor at actually assisting.
It’ll be a green light for buses on the signal located just after a stop so the bus stops to pick people up whereby the bus signal promptly goes red and stays red when the bus departs.
Current 472 route
For those unaware the 472 is a high frequency route that was extended from north Thamesmead to Abbey Wood in recent years to link up with the Elizabeth line.
I used it just yesterday and as usual there was a couple of buses waiting to set off beside Abbey Wood station. A two minute wait and we were off.
Becoming an express route would mean North Thamesmead sees two limited-stop buses to Abbey Wood station. The SL3 already takes just five minutes from north Thamesmead and three minutes from central Thamesmead.
Unlike the SL3, the 472 heads through west Thamesmead unlike SL3. Will the SL11? It’d make it rather less express but would cut off a key link.
Spurring housing development?
Another big question is whether another express bus for north Thamesmead would see Peabody finally build at acres of land in North Thamesmead? Probably not given their actions at south Thamesmead within metres of Abbey Wood station.
That and the absence of any area consultation or approved outline masterplan let alone detailed submissions.
If a sparking new £18 billion rail line doesn’t get them moving then a £23m bus probably won’t – even though more than 5k homes can be built in North Thamesmead before a Grampian condition means further transport improvements are needed.
TfL are still mentioning a DLR extension to Thamesmead to link to SL11 though that would prohibit the resurrection of another project scrapped by Boris Johnson in 2009 alongside the Greenwich Waterfront Transit: a DLR extension to Dagenham Dock.
That DLR extension would have passed through Barking Riverside with four stops past Beckton Riverside and passing sites where housing totals were doubled to 20k alone last autumn. Dagenham too has plans now in for thousands more homes around Dagenham Dock station.
A London Overground extension is now in place but at just four trains per hour of limited length that do not head directly to central London that doesn’t appear sufficient for a now-doubled total of 20k+ new homes.
TfL appear to be starting to grasp that according to comments made in late 2024.
Charlton and Greenwich
Given Peabody’s recent history all across Thamesmead, Superloop SL11 will probably be most welcomed by those in Woolwich and Charlton who gain an express bus to North Greenwich where homes are actually rising.
The new route will also save some blushes as with a 2026 deadline to start, millions would have been spent for a bus to North Thamesmead when Peabody have no intention of building any homes there for many years. At least now it heads west to further areas of construction.
One wonders just how much infrastructure needs to be built before Peabody do speed up on acres of land around Thamesmead eleven years after taking control and almost a decade after being awarded grants and loans as part of a Housing Zone.
The Elizabeth line’s arrival? Nope. A Superloop route in SL3 linking areas in minutes to the Elizabeth line? Nah. Now another Superloop is on the way with £23m further funds. Would a DLR even would spur them on?
Better to resurrect the Dagenham Dock DLR extension instead of Thamesmead to serve thousands more homes in Beckton, Barking (homes actually now rising) and Dagenham and use Superloop SL11 as a precursor for high capacity and high frequency trams across Thamesmead and beyond – as once proposed by TfL themselves.
That way a tram network can serve not only North Thamesmead but other major growth areas such as:
- Erith: 6,000 (total in Bexley Growth Strategy plan)
- Belvedere: 8,000 (2,000 now approved)
- Charlton: 8,000 (homes planned in approved Masterplan)
- North Greenwich: 20,000 homes (17,500 under Knight Dragon Masterplan and 2,500 at sites such as Morden Wharf and Fairview Homes’ approved development).
The DLR to Thamesmead wouldn’t do a fraction of that.
More details
According to TfL we should find out further details of Superloop route SL11 later this year and whether west Thamesmead loses a connection – and just what £23 million capital funding goes towards.
And perhaps by some miracle Peabody may reveal even tentative plans for housing in North Thamesmead – though that could be a hope too far.
Slowly but surely plans are generally moving back to those TfL had lined up before Boris Johnson scrapped them as Mayor. They made sense and were chosen for a reason.
To get back there SL11 would be a precursor to trams and the DLR would head to Dagenham. Things are slowly shifting back to the 2000s.
Things were far more optimistic in the 2000s than the 2020s, I do feel an express link to Lewisham would have been useful to restore the link between Thamesmead and Lewisham
The 2000s were decent for London infrastructure with the new Mayoral position and Livingstone pushing for improvements including the buses and DLR to Woolwich but central government/Blair/Brown and the Treasury were obstructing other schemes much of the time.
New Labour forced privatisation on the tube in the early 2000s (which went badly wrong and cost taxpayers billions), took 10 years to approve “Thameslink 2000” so it didn’t open until 18 years after the millennium and dithered over Crossrail for ten years too. One reason the original GWT scheme was so watered down was Labour didn’t want to help fund it and the Tories canned it.
Jubilee line extension opened in 1999 though that was pushed back for decades (Thamesmead was due to have a station on that line once upon a time).
Bakerloo line extension has been shunted back by Labour and Tories for decades to boot.
The UK has been a long way behind many developed nations for building infrastructure even in the capital with a fast rising population. Question now is whether Reeves & Starmer are Blair/Brown Mark 2 and unwilling to fund for years if at all or saw what Livingstone did and a successful city needs investment.
I also think Livingstone was a much better mayor than Khan is, Livingstone wanted to introduce tram and trolley bus schemes after the success of the Croydon Tramlink, but Blair/Brown kicked it down the road, these schemes obviously would have been the Greenwich transit, the Uxbridge Road transit, the Cross River transit and the East London transit which we got but on a much smaller scale.
Yes kicking Thameslink down the road was also a daft move, and they should have extended the Bakerloo line before the East London line
The hoes are rising?
More about route SL11 proposals
The regeneration plans for Thamesmead rely on new public transport to better connect the area to the rest of London and help unlock the maximum opportunity for new homes.
The Government announced funding in the 2023 Autumn Statement for a bus transit scheme in Thamesmead to support this regeneration. Bus transit schemes use a combination of express bus services with changes to the roads to ensure a quick and reliable service. Such schemes can feature dedicated infrastructure, such as bus lanes as well as traffic light priority at junctions, which helps to protect buses from the effects of traffic congestion. These schemes can also feature enhanced bus stops as well as healthy streets and cycling infrastructure.
It is proposed that the existing route 472, would be renumbered as route SL11, and would run as an express service between Abbey Wood and North Greenwich via Thamesmead and Woolwich. This would improve journey times and provide quicker connections between the Elizabeth line, DLR, London Underground and National Rail. All bus stops on the existing route 472 would either be served by route SL11 or require some existing passengers to switch to high frequency parallel bus routes. These proposals would support the early stages of development in Thamesmead. We are also working with the Royal Borough of Greenwich and the London Borough of Bexley to develop the detailed plans for the highway and bus infrastructure. These plans would be subject to consultation at a later date.
To deliver the full potential of these regeneration plans, we are also proposing to extend the DLR from Gallions Reach, with new stations at Beckton Riverside and Thamesmead(External link).
The superloop route between Thamesmead and North Greenwich should be in addition to route 472 not to replace route 472 which is a local stopping bus service.
I agree with a new bus service between Thamesmead and Lewisham is needed to replace the lost link to Lewisham providec by route 180 when route 180 was re-routed away from Lewisham to North Greenwich Station. The new Superloop bus route could run via Thamesmead Abbey Wood, Plumstead, Woolwich, Charlton, North Greenwich, East Greenwich, Greenwich Town Centre and Lewisham.
Along witb the proposed. new Superloop bus routes we need to see local bus services improvements to meet the demands of a ever growing local population and new housing developments around the Boroughs of Bexley Greenwich and Lewisham.
I totally agree with you Graham. But sadly The current Mayor of London. TFL do jot listen. They run expensive consultations to get people’s views comments and suggestions where they think changes can be made to improve
the proposals.
Them ignore what people say and do what they were going to do anyway in the firsr place. Which is a huge waste of public money.
Sadly local councillors and MP’s do not listen either as do not want to upset their own Labour Mayor For London.
I think there is a place for new Superloop bus routes like the route that is to follow the Bakerloo Line extension between Lewisham and Waterloo. I think express bus routes in to Central London. Including the West End and the City and across to Docklands will be far more popular than other more local superloop routes.
I support the Superloop bus route between Thamesmead and North Greenwich in addition to the existing 472 bus route, But not to replace the 472 bus route But agree we need to restore a bus route between Thamesmead and Lewisham via Woolwich and Greenwich following the old 180 routing. We do need to see improvements to local bus services not cuts to services to meet growing demand in South East London as peopke have mentioned the local population is growing but infrastructure is not keeping up with demand.
I agree the new proposed superloop route between Thamesmead and North Greenwich needs to be a separate route running along side the existing 472 bus route.More buses are needed not fewer to meet demand as residents move in to new developments.
I have to agree the existing route 472 should continue to operate and should be extended to Lewisham via North Greenwich East Greenwich and Gfeenwich Town Centre with buses running via Blackwall Lane.
Alternatively the SL11 should operate an express bus route between Thamesmead and Lewisham via Thamesmead. Abbey Wood, Plumstead, Woolwich, Charlton, North Greenwich, Blackwall Lane East Greenwich, Greenwich Town Centre and Lewisham. Linking with the BL1 Bakerloo Line Bus (Superloop).
It would also link up with the SL3 Thamesmead to Bromley.
Just changing route numbers from 472 to SL11 are just not the outer London bus service improvements the Mayor of London promised when cutting Central London Bus Routes and gaining planning permission for the Silvertown Tunnel to go a head.
We have already seen how he has gone back on his word here cutting the amount of passenger bus routes to serve the new Silvertown Tunnel from 5 to 2. Leaving large areas with out a bus service through the tunnel meaning they will need to rely on their cars and be forced to pay tolls on both the Silvertown and Blackwall Tunnels which will put many people in to financial hardship.
@ C That suggeston could work really well if the SL11 became Thamesmead to Lewisham. Via North Greenwich..
As route SL5 Croydon to Bromley would link up with the SL3 at Bromley. The SL3 Bromley to Thamesmead would link up with the SL11 at Thamesmead.
The SL11 if extend to Lewisham.to become Thamesmead to Lewisham would link up with the BL1 Bakerloo Line Bus Lewisham to Waterloo at Lewisham.
So all routes would link at Key points integrated bus services at its best.
@ C. Having the Superloop route SL11 operating an express service between Thamesmead and Lewisham via North Greenwich would make sense and be welcomed by passengers. Has passengers c can still travel to Nortb Greenwich Station on existing day routes 161 180 422 and 472 has at present.
Linking the Superloop bus routes together at keypoints as outlined by yourself in your comment where Superloop bus routes connect makes perfect common sense and has KM stated really is integrated public transport (Bus Services) at its best.
The Mayor of London, TFL, Councillors and MP’s really do need to listen to the public more and take their comments and suggestions on board when making decisions..
If route 472 is replaced by the superloop xpress route SL11.
There are three options that may work having the SL11 a stopping service between Abbey Wood and Woolwich Covered Market than express to North Greenwich via Charlton Retail Parks
Option 2 Extending route 301 to Charlton Retail Parks which means route SL11 woukd run express between Abbey Wood and Greenwich Peninsula/North Greenwich Station.
Option 3 Extending route 380 Lewisham to Belmarsh via existing route 472 to Abbey Wood with an increased frequency to re÷instate the lost and very much missed bus link between Abbey Wood and Thamesmead with Lewusham Town Centre.